Talk:List of largest cities throughout history

I'm still working on it

i came across this site http://geography.about.com/library/weekly/aa011201a.htm and i thought it's interesting that there's a list of all the most populated cities since the dawn of civilization. I'll work on expanding this article when i have more time. Meanwhile if anyone can help expanding it please do. Oh yeah, I didn't copy and paste the entire list from the site, I put together the table myself and reorganised the structure. Oidia 05:00, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I need some help

Hi, i have trouble putting text below the table in the main article. Everytime I add new headings or texts underneath the table, it always ended up showing above the table. Can anyone please help me with putting the Reference down the bottom? And after I put together the table I'm kind of stuck on writing the main body, anyone suggests what to put in there? Oidia 02:49, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Ok i fixed the table problem. Oidia 05:31, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

This seems valuable

I just stumbled upon this page, which seems like a great idea. If I could make a suggestion or two, though, I'd recommend taking a look at the Wikipedia:List_guideline and formatting this page more like other Wikipedia lists (Including changing the name to "List of largest cities throughout history"). Elijahmeeks 04:32, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I've changed the name to List of largest cities throughout history. Please help me change the structure of the article...I'm currently having some kind of writers block. meanwhile it'll be great if u can make improvements on it. i'll definitely comeback here once i get my head around it. Oidia 05:07, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do to help, though I've never worked on lists before. Elijahmeeks 15:09, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

There is a better article on the same topic

Everything here should be moved to Historical urban community sizes if it is not so already.Gabriel Kielland 07:25, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Since no one has made any further suggestion, nor has anyone talked about it, the article should not be merged. And I have removed the template. Oidia (talk) 01:27, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I am opposed to a merger because this article is long enough to survive on its own and it discusses another topic. --96.232.60.31 (talk) 00:23, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks

to everyone who contributed to and improved this article so much :) Oidia 12:13, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Population of Knossos and Athens estimated by Modelski and Chandler

George Modelski estimated the population of Knossos at 15,000 for the years of 1700 B.C. (6th largest) and 1600 B.C. (9th largest), at 50,000 for the year of 1500 B.C. (2nd largest), and at >10,000 for the year of 1400 B.C. He also estimated the population of Athens at 100,000 for the year of 400 B.C. (one of the 9th largest). On the other hand, Tertius Chandler estimated the population of Knossos at 20-24,000 for the year of 1600 B.C (8th largest) and at 30,000 for the year of 1360 B.C. (9th largest) in his book published in 1987. He also estimated the populatio of Athens at 155,000 for the year of 430 B.C. (3rd largest).

There may be some dispute over the populatio of Knossos, which did not have city walls. But in most of the case the city size of Knossos is estimated to be around 100 ha or more, where more than 50,000 inhabitants can hardly live.

For the Athens' case, 350,000 is not the estimated population for the city of Athens, but for the whole Attica. Recent estimates are even lower than 100,000.

http://www.princeton.edu/~pswpc/pdfs/morris/120509.pdf

Ehrenberg's estimates for Athens are: 120–150,000 (in 480 B.C.); 215–300,000 (in 417 B.C.); 115–175,000 (in 400 B.C.); 170–255,000 (in 360 B.C.); 135–190,000 (in 313 B.C.). Gomme's estimates for Athens are: 317,000 (in 432 B.C.); 218,000 (in 425 B.C.), 258,000 (in 323 B.C.). According to Modelski, "These are estimates for inhabitants of the Athenian state; only two-fifth of these earlier on, and one half in the latter fourth century, would be living in the city)."

Anyway the source of the population that Den123456dk has given for Knossos and Athens is not Modelski's nor Chandler's book. For the addition of Knossos or Athens, the fourth column should be made, but better estimates or references should be taken into consideration to make another column.Aurichalcum (talk) 10:46, 30 April 2008 (UTC)Aurichalcum (talk) 15:13, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I think the upper estimate for Knossos (100,000) is based on M .Podini's statement in Lost cities from the Ancient world published in 2002: "estimated population of 100,000 including port and place". However the palace of Knossos is 8 km inland from the port, which means that the estimated population of 100,000 is actually for the total area directly ruled by Knossos, not for the city of Knossos itself (old palace ca. 20 ha; intensive settelment covered over 75 ha). Aurichalcum (talk) 14:56, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

The edtimated population of 350,000 is not for the densely inhabited area of Athens nor for the whole area inside the city walls, but for the whole Attica in mid-5th century B.C. See above discussion.Aurichalcum (talk) 02:37, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Jerico

I changed the current country from West Bank to Israel. The West Bank is in Israel even if it is under the control of the Palestine Authority, which, incidentally, only exists as an Act of the Knesset. Therefore the authority derives is power by virtue of an act of Parliament, the Israeli parliament.--Degen Earthfast (talk) 14:03, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Ian Morris estimates

These estimates have some problems with them. First they show some Asian cities with huge populations, based on not very solid estimates. Particularly the city of Bagdah, a city that supposedly reached 1 million inhabitants around 800 CE. However archaeological data from 800 CE points out that the levels of metal production and sea trade in western Eurasia had declined greatly from their peak in the 1st century. The number of shipwrecks found in the mediterranean dated from the 8th century totaled 2 wrecks, compared to 180 wrecks dated from the 1st century, the 8th century wrecks were also smaller. This indicates that the volume of trade in the mediterranean declined 100 fold, clearly such levels of trade couldn't support urban populations comparable to Roman times. So I have some better estimates from Ian Morris 2010 book, Why the West Rules, that give some more realistic estimates, I hope somebody with better table skills may edit the main article including this data:

Largest city in world

6500 BCE - Çatalhöyük, 3,000 inhabitants 4000 BCE - Uruk, Tell Brak, 5,000 3000 BCE - Uruk, over 45,000 2000 BCE - Memphis, 60,000 1500 BCE - Uruk, Thebes, 75,000 1200 BCE - Babylon, Thebes, 80,000 1000 BCE - Susa, 25,000 500 BCE - Babylon, 150,000 200 BCE - Alexandria, 300,000 100 BCE - Alexandria, 400,000 1 CE - Rome, 1,000,000 200 CE - Rome, 800,000 400 CE - Rome, 500,000 600 CE - Chang'an, 250,000 800 CE - Chang'an, 1,000,000 1000 CE - Kaifeng, 1,000,000 1200 CE - Hangzhou, 800,000 1400 CE - Nanjing, 500,000 1500 CE - Beijing, 600,000 1600 CE - Beijing, 700,000 1700 CE - Beijing, 650,000 1800 CE - Beijing, 1,100,000 1900 CE - London, 6,500,000 2000 CE - Tokyo, 26,700,0000 --RafaelG (talk) 00:41, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree with you that Chandler's or Modelski's estimates got a lot of problems. The estimated population for present-day Iraq in AD 1000 by McEvedy & Jones (1978) is only 2 million (or 2.5 million in AD 900) out of an estimated population of 22 million for Southwestern Asia. On the other hand, the estimated population for Southwestern Asia in AD 1000 by Biraben (2006) is 33 million (29 million in AD 800), which may allow an estimated population of 3 million for present-day Iraq. Even so, the estimated population of 1 million for Baghdad seems too high. Chandler also underestimated populations of Chinese historical cities, although there exist a lot of records for registered households or populations in Chinese history books.

I'm quite interested in the recent book written by Ian Morris. When I get access to the reference, I will update this article.Aurichalcum (talk) 02:22, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

I have just read "Why the West Rules ...". Populations of the largest settlement in each core are given in Table A.2, page 632. According to page 631, "There is enough ambiguity in the data and flexibility in definitions that experts disagree over city sizes in every period, and I explain my decisions on the website. In Table A.2 I just summarize some of my main calculations."

Indeed, the explanations for the estimates of urban populations are summarized in his website. However, the data given in PDF are sligtly different (probably updated) from the data given in the pulbished book. So, I will use the website one to update this article.Aurichalcum (talk) 16:51, 13 May 2011 (UTC)Aurichalcum (talk) 16:52, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Original table

Date	West		East
	population	largest settlement	population	largest settlement
7500 BCE	1,000	Beidha, Basta, Çatalhöyük
6500 BCE	3,000	Çatalhöyük
4000 BCE	5,000	Uruk, Tell Brak	<1,000	Xipo, Dadiwan
3000 BCE	>45,000	Uruk	2,000	Dadiwan
2000 BCE	60,000	Memphis	15,000	Erlitou
1500 BCE	75,000	Uruk, Thebes	35,000	Zhengzhou, Yanshi
1200 BCE	80,000	Babylon, Thebes	50,000	Anyang (Yinxu)
1000 BCE	25,000	Susa	35,000	Qiyi
500 BCE	150,000	Babylon	80,000	Luoyi (Luoyang), Linzi
200 BCE	300,000	Alexandria	125,000	Linzi
1 BCE/CE	1,000,000	Rome	500,000	Chang'an
200 CE	800,000	Rome	120,000	Luoyang
400 CE	500,000	Rome	150,000	Luoyang
600 CE	125,000	Constantinople	250,000	Daxingcheng (Chang'an)
800 CE	175,000	Damascus	1,000,000	Chang'an
1000 CE	200,000	Córdoba	1,000,000	Kaifeng
1200 CE	250,000	Baghdad, Cairo, Constantinople	800,000	Hangzhou
1400 CE	125,000	Cairo	500,000	Nanjing
1500 CE	100,000	Constantinople	600,000	Beijing
1600 CE	400,000	Constantinople	700,000	Beijing
1700 CE	600,000	Constantinople	650,000	Beijing
1800 CE	900,000	London	1,100,000	Beijing
1900 CE	6,600,000	London	1,750,000	Tokyo
2000 CE	16,700,000	New York	26,700,000	Tokyo

Updated table

Date	West		East
	population	largest settlement	population	largest settlement
8000 BCE	500	Mureybet
7000 BCE	1,000	Beidha, Basta, Çatalhöyük
6000 BCE	3,000	Çatalhöyük
5000 BCE	4,000	Tell Brak
4000 BCE	5,000	Uruk, Tell Brak	300	Jiangzhai, Jiahu
3500 BCE	8,000	Uruk, Susa, Tell Brak	2,000	Xipo
3000 BCE	45,000	Uruk	5,000	Dadiwan
2500 BCE	50,000	Uruk	10,000	Taosi, Liangchenzhen, Yaowangcheng
2250 BCE	35,000	Akkad, Memphis	14,000	Taosi, Liangchenzhen, Yaowangcheng
2000 BCE	60,000	Memphis, Ur	11,000	Fangcheng-Nanshi
1750 BCE	65,000	Babylon	24,000	Erlitou
1500 BCE	75,000	Uruk, Thebes	35,000	Zhengzhou
1400 BCE	80,000	Thebes	35,000	Zhengzhou
1300 BCE	80,000	Thebes	35,000	Zhengzhou
1200 BCE	80,000	Babylon, Thebes	50,000	Anyang (Yinxu)
1100 BCE	50,000	Memphis, Thebes, Tanis	50,000	Anyang (Yinxu)
1000 BCE	50,000	Thebes	35,000	Luoyi (Luyang), Fenghao (Haojing)
900 BCE	50,000	Thebes	40,000	Luoyi (Luyang), Fenghao (Haojing)
800 BCE	75,000	Nimrud (Kalhu)	45,000	Luoyi (Luyang), Fenghao (Haojing)
700 BCE	100,000	Nineveh	55,000	Linzi, Luoyi (Luyang)
600 BCE	125,000	Babylon	65,000	Linzi, Luoyi (Luyang)
500 BCE	150,000	Babylon	80,000	Linzi
400 BCE	150,000	Babylon	100,000	Linzi, Qufu, Luoyi (Luoyang), Xinzheng, Wuyang (Xiadu)
300 BCE	150,000	Babylon, Alexandria	125,000	Linzi, Qufu, Luoyi (Luoyang), Xinzheng, Wuyang (Xiadu)
200 BCE	300,000	Alexandria	250,000	Chang'an
100 BCE	400,000	Alexandria, Rome	375,000	Chang'an
1 BCE/CE	1,000,000	Rome	500,000	Chang'an
100 CE	1,000,000	Rome	420,000	Luoyang
200 CE	1,000,000	Rome	120,000	Chang'an
300 CE	800,000	Rome	140,000	Pingcheng, Chang'an, Luoyang, Xuchang, Ye
400 CE	800,000	Rome	200,000	Pingcheng
500 CE	450,000	Constantinople	200,000	Luoyang
600 CE	150,000	Constantinople	600,000	Daxingcheng (Chang'an)
700 CE	125,000	Constantinople	1,000,000	Chang'an
800 CE	175,000	Baghdad	1,000,000	Chang'an
900 CE	175,000	Córdoba	750,000	Chang'an
1000 CE	200,000	Córdoba	1,000,000	Kaifeng
1100 CE	250,000	Constantinople	1,000,000	Kaifeng
1200 CE	250,000	Baghdad, Cairo, Constantinople	1,00,000	Hangzhou
1300 CE	400,000	Cairo	800,000	Hangzhou
1400 CE	125,000	Cairo	500,000	Nanjing
1500 CE	400,000	Cairo	678,000	Beijing
1600 CE	400,000	Constantinople	700,000	Beijing
1700 CE	600,000	London, Constantinple	650,000	Beijing
1800 CE	900,000	London	1,100,000	Beijing
1900 CE	6,600,000	London	1,750,000	Tokyo
2000 CE	16,700,000	New York	26,400,000	Tokyo

Locations (latitude and longitude for google map) of Chinese ruins that do not appear in Wikipedia:

• Xipo: 34.3587,111.0214
• Liangchenzhen: 35.5831,119.5551 (near Yaowangcheng)
• Yaowangcheng: 35.3120,119.3756 (near Liangchenzhen)
• Fangchen: 35.7498,111.5850 (neighboring to Nanshi, near Taosi)
• Nanshi: 35.7611,111.6007 (neighboring to Fangchen, near Taosi)

Aurichalcum (talk) 21:15, 15 May 2011 (UTC) Aurichalcum (talk) 06:00, 17 May 2011 (UTC)Aurichalcum (talk) 06:25, 17 May 2011 (UTC) Aurichalcum (talk) 18:32, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Confusion about reversion of change

I'm confused why my change (Created External links section and added relevant external link) was reverted. I believe the external link is valuable in that it presents the data on this page in a visual form that will undoubtedly be of interest to visitors to this page. My change was reverted immediately and with no reason given. I'm relatively new to Wikipedia edits, so please let me know if I made a mistake in the way I did this, but please _do_ let me know, don't just revert a good faith edit without giving a reason! Thanks, Markinvancouver (talk) 01:18, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

The maps are misleading and in contradiction with the article. The worst example is Setubal 1600 BC. Gabriel Kielland (talk) 13:03, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, many of the Chandler's estimated populations of world urbans are indeed questionable, but are still referred in many research papers. For the Setúbal case, he probably estimated the population of Zambujal of the culture of Vila Nova de São Pedro. I rather support to keep the link to the map.Aurichalcum (talk) 13:45, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Since there have been no further posts on this, and the only argument against has been addressed (the external web site follows Chandler, as documented under Sources), I propose putting the external link back in. Clearly, the external web site is not in competition with this extremely well researched and well documented Wikipedia article: it's a visualization, which presents a small subset of Chandler's findings, and an even smaller subset of the data available on this page, in a way that's easy to follow, revealing some larger trends in a way that tabulated data does not. I think it complements this Wikipedia article well, and will increase people's interest in examining the data here in more detail. Thanks, Markinvancouver (talk) 01:59, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

There is too much lines !

I think different dates in the same century should be joined together. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.35.29.211 (talk) 18:54, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

I think the best solution would be to make the lines dividing different sources bold, or otherwise different from the lines dividing the different categories. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.174.233.202 (talk) 19:40, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Aztec

hey there - great article however i'm sure there should be Aztec populations in here as well ta (Bkat004 (talk) 15:17, 29 July 2012 (UTC))

American and African cities

I am missing some entries from Ethiopea, Mexico, Peru. Helenuh (talk) 01:11, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

WP:ERA

Given the current (literal) breadth of the article, the desire to avoid text wrapping, and the majority of text on the current page, I'm standardizing the usage to BC/AD. Given the initial formatting of the page, I do understand if a consensus might form to use BCE/CE but kindly establish it first & switch all the dates. If we do go back to that way, one way to shrink it & make it less obnoxious is to use smallcaps as in this comment. — LlywelynII 03:36, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Footnotes

Don't go before the relevant text. Ever.

If you really want it to be on a different line, use <br/> before the ref formatting. — LlywelynII 03:36, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Table formatting

On a similar note, this is an article about cities not population numbers: the cities should lead in the tables. — LlywelynII 03:41, 11 August 2014 (UTC)

Doesn't make sense to have columns by author

It doesn't make sense and it is not scalable to have columns by authors. The authors/books should simply be cited by the numbers. I would rather suggest the same format with simply cities and years, split in separate tables by epoch, similar to Historical urban community sizes. I would go further suggesting that the two articles should be merged.--Codrin.B (talk) 19:20, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

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Dubious sources

See WP:RSN#Sources for List of largest cities throughout history. Doug Weller talk 21:19, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

I am not sure that this is a case of dubious sources, it is made apparent that these are estimates by specific authors and not concrete fact.Adamm321 (talk) 21:21, 15 February 2020 (UTC)Adam

Chandler sources

It stands to reason that "Tertius Chandler, Four Thousand Years of Urban Growth: An Historical Census, 1987" supersedes "Tertius Chandler and Gerald Fox, 3000 Years of Urban Growth, 1974". I suggest removing the "Chandler & Fox 1974" column. –dlthewave ☎ 23:51, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

Table

The table is currently an absolute mess. I am not much familiar with table formatting, can someone fix it? Gotitbro (talk) 03:12, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Pinging previous contributors @Dlthewave and Doug Weller:. Gotitbro (talk) 03:14, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm afraid I can't be of much help, I did some cleanup a while back but I'm not very good with table formatting either. –dlthewave ☎ 13:12, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Ditto, sorry. Useless at tables. Doug Weller talk 19:52, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

@Gotitbro: Why is it an "absolute mess"? It looks pretty good to me, the only issue I immediately noticed is that when the fourth column was removed, per § Chandler sources above, at least one row (1962) was left empty. Any rows without figures should be removed I suppose. – wbm1058 (talk) 04:40, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

@Wbm1058: I am seeing population numbers in the location rows and vice versa in the population rows here on my desktop, with Chandler being completely. I guess you are right that this diff caused it, if someone could fix it that would be great. Gotitbro (talk) 06:40, 28 December 2020 (UTC)

Ollie Bye As Source?

I was wondering if Ollie Bye fulfilled the requirements to be a reliable source that could be included as its own source. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kptMVQRud5c Please reply what your opinion is. I will add him as its own column if there are no objections to this addition. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.180.22.221 (talk) 22:01, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

He's not sorry. We need an academic source for this. --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:41, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Population of Carthage?

You have to explain how a city of 3.15 square kilometers can accommodate a population of 500,000 people, even in the slums of modern Africa or India, or in the high-rise housing of Hong Kong.There will not be such a high population density.

Whether the city's population can exceed 100,000 is still debatable, let alone a figure like 500,000, which is simply unrealistic. 完颜吴乞买 (talk) 02:32, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

China's cities from 500 to 200 BC are underestimated

China's "Warring States Period" is seriously underestimated, and the number of large cities in this historical period far exceeds that of the Han Dynasty, the Three Kingdoms, and the Jin Dynasty that followed...

Estimating the size of the population of ancient cities is difficult because of their age and varied architectural styles. But the city floor area does not lie, and if the city has a large floor area, it proves that the city has a large population.

临淄齐国故城，姜子牙建起“东方古罗马”_腾讯新闻 (qq.com)

For example, Linzi, the capital of the ancient Qi Kingdom, has an area of 16 square kilometers, which is almost the same size as the Roman city.

艰辛四十载 再现纪南城 (kaogu.cn)

There is also the capital of the ancient Chu State, Ji Nancheng (Ying), which covers an area of 16 square kilometers.

Dong Hailin, Li Guang, Li Ya's book "Handan Places of Interest" 2011 edition, the book on page 50 records Handan, the capital of the ancient Zhao State, with a construction area of 18.88 square kilometers.

中山古城遗址保护规划出炉 曾出土万余件文物(图)-中新网 (chinanews.com.cn)

Lingshou, the capital of the ancient Zhongshan Kingdom, has 46 square kilometers of ancient city ruins, but this is not exactly the city part, including mausoleums and some military buildings.

开封城墙的变迁 (zhihu.com)

The capital of the ancient Wei state, Daliang, covers an area of more than 20 square kilometers, but unfortunately the city is now located 10 meters underground in Kaifeng City, and the excavation has not yet begun.

《河南文物之窗》——郑韩故城-河南省文物局 (henan.gov.cn)

In ancient times, the capital of Han (Han) was Xinzheng, with an area of about 16 square kilometers.

党报头条｜一座古城，诠释传承 (baidu.com)

Jucheng, the capital of the ancient Ju Kingdom, was also a large city, and later became the capital of the Qi State, expanding its area to 25 square kilometers.

In addition to the above, Mudu, Shouchun, Gaotang, Xiadu, Luoyang, Jinyang, Diqiu, Suiyang, Jimo, A, Pinglu, Jicheng, Yong, Chen, Xianyang, Ye, etc., were all considered larger cities at that time.

Estimates of the population of ancient cities are obviously unscientific, but the size of the city's ruins will tell us the answer. 完颜吴乞买 (talk) 03:14, 30 November 2023 (UTC)